Talk:Alawites

Summary of Alawites beliefs in lead

I'm reverting this edit because it is not tenable to make some reference to Alawite theology in the lead. The belief section now sumarises the main tenets of Alawite belief. The key sentences are each sourced to at least four inline citations of WP:RS. These include the product of modern neutral scholarship in the last decade. There is in fact no WP:RS which contradicts these statements. There is, IMHO, no legitimate reason to leave this out of the lead. However, it is quite noticeable that over the last 18 months SPAs have consistently re-shaped the article with the POV that Alawite belief is equal to Twelver Shi'a. DeCausa (talk) 23:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

What you have added is controversial, therefore it should not be stated as fact in the lead. FunkMonk (talk) 00:35, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not controversial among scholarly RS. Please provide RS (of equivalence to that cited in the Theology and practices subsection of the article) to support your statement. (Sunni/Shia/Alawite partisan literature would not be RS) DeCausa (talk) 08:07, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Erm, this very article states the "Ali is God" theory is controversial/a misinterpretation. There is no "Alawite partisan literature" on this issue, because Alawites do not discuss these matters in public. That's why so much hogwash has been circulating for centuries. FunkMonk (talk) 05:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's one report by a journalist which simply says that "Ali is God" is considered to be a "misinterpretation by some scholars". (The word "controversial" is not used). I had thought of removing that, but on balance I've left it in. The fact is that in itself it is an unsubstatiated statement. The reality is that all modern scholarship on the Alawites confirms that their belief is based on the divine triad - and this is not treated as being "controversial", in the sense of it being in doubt. This includes all the recent academic studies:

• Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. ISBN 9004178929.
• Prochazka-Eisl, Gisela; Prochazka, Stephan (2010). The Plain of Saints and Prophets: The Nusayri-Alawi Community of Cilicia. ISBN 3447061782.
• Bar-Asher, Meir M.; Kofsky, Aryeh (2002). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawī Religion: An Enquiry Into Its Theology and Liturgy. ISBN 9004125523.

as well as more generalist but equally scholarly analysis such as

• Peters, F.E. (2009). The Monotheists: Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Conflict and Competition. ISBN 1400825717.
• Glasse, Cyril (2008). The New Encyclopedia of Islam. ISBN 0742562964.
• Böwering, Gerhard et al. (eds.) (2012). The Princeton Encyclopedia of Islamic Political Thought. ISBN 0691134847. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help)
• Encyclopaedia of Islam (Heinz Halm's article Nusariyya)

You have to separate what is politically controversial and where there is an actual dispute among WP:RS scholars. I have not seen any dispute in reliable scholarly sources on this. I don't think it exists. However, this article has seen significant POV editing over the last 18 months. There used to be a section that explained Alawite belief. But this has been gradually removed - until I recently restored it. Can you provide reliable academic/scholarly sources that contradict the above sources, i.e what I've suggested for the lead? DeCausa (talk) 10:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

All of the above are based on the same old unreliable sources, information allegedly leaked by one Alawite in the early 20th century I believe, combined with Western "scholarship" from the 19thcentury. Look at the references used by your sources. FunkMonk (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

All the above are the accepted modern academic scholarship on Alawite belief. What you have asserted is WP:OR. Once again, do you have any WP:RS of at least equivalent standing to suport your assertion? DeCausa (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

All modern "scholarship" is based on old, Orientalist crap or extremist Islamist rumours. Most in the West is based on Samuel Lyde's faulty old musings, see for example here.[1] Western scholarship on Alawites is at best based on third hand accounts, as Alawites themselves never reveal what they believe in to outsiders. FunkMonk (talk) 23:34, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

That is a sweeping generalisation which is as untrue as it is unsourced. What I've cited earlier in this thread are serious academic studies written in the last decade, not journalism or internet memes based on Lyde. You are out of date: the study of Alawite belief in the last decade is entirely different. For example, the Prochazka-Eisl/Prochazka work I cite is based on field work amongst the Alawites by two scholars. Unless you can produce critiques of these specific academic works from the last decade that they are either based on "orientalist crap" or "Islamist rumours" I think we should take this to third party dispute resolution. Do you agree? At the moment the article clearly breaches WP:LEAD. DeCausa (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2014 (UTC) DeCausa

@FunkMonk:, could you respond please. To clarify, my proposal is that to comply with WP:LEAD the 2nd paragraph of the lead should be amended to read:

"Alawites have historically kept their beliefs secret from outsiders and non-initiated Alawites, so rumours about them have arisen. Arabic accounts of their beliefs tend to be partisan (either positively or negatively).[1] However, since the early 2000s, Western scholarship on the Alawite religion has made significant advances.[2] At the core of Alawite belief is a divine triad, comprising three aspects of the one God. These aspects or emanations appear cyclically in human form throughout history. The last emanations of the divine triad, according to Alawite belief, were as Ali, Muhammad and Salman the Persian. Alawites were historically persecuted for these beliefs by the Sunni Muslim rulers of the area."

Citations [1] and [2] are Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. ISBN 9004178929.. Citation [1] is page 68 and citation [2] is page 67. The remaining additions are already in the main body of the article as unqualified statements supported by citations to multiple scholarly sources, and there is no need to repeat the citations therefore. DeCausa (talk) 08:49, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Claims of "field work" counts for little when it is a death-sin for Alawites to reveal the secrets of the faith. FunkMonk (talk) 04:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Have you read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS? DeCausa (talk) 18:36, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Have you read WP:UNDUE? Citing mainly Sunni and Israeli scholars (no less than four or five of these are by Israelis) about people they are in conflict with is POV. Not a single source written by an Alawite is used. FunkMonk (talk) 20:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a rather sectarian comment. It's scraping the barrel resorting to that to discredit internationally recognised scholarship. There are also major western academics in the list. You, on the other hand, have produced not one reliable source for your assertions. How can WP:UNDUE apply when the only sources produced support what I'm saying? DeCausa (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

You're ignoring my point, there are no Alwite sources used, which is giving undue weight by default. Sectarian? If the article about Jews was written mainly using sources written by Palestinians, you can be pretty sure there would be an uproar. But no one cares about Alawites, they can be demonised at will, so this article even cites arch-neocons like Daniel Pipes, who just wants Arabs to kill each other. No, Israelis are no friends of Alawites, or Shias in general for that matter. Therefore they should not be cited when it comes to their theology, especially not when the claims are as controversial as here, and are currently used as an excuse to kill Alawites. Parts of WP:Biographies of living persons would also come to play here. And before you complain about "sectarianism", I'm pretty sure you wouldn't cite Iranians in articles about Jewish theology. FunkMonk (talk) 21:47, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

But you are ignoring my point. You have cited no sources for what you are saying. WP:UNDUE is where there is 1 source saying X and 20 saying Y, the X point of view is given undue prominence. But here we have 7 sources saying X and zero saying Y but you saying...it's undue because none if them are Alawites. It's total nonsense. Please post the reliable sources that deprecate the description of Alawite belief that I have given based on these 7 sources. If you can't, then say so. The fact is, you haven't taken out the description of Alawite belief that I have included in the body of the article - you can't because it's well sourced. This is only about WP:LEAD and the lead reflecting what's already in the article. Anyway, post below the sources you are relying on please. DeCausa (talk) 22:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Lol, so you want me to provide sources that say none of the articles cited here were written by Alawites, but that several were written by Israelis, Sunnis, and neo-con antagonists? Well, that's already inherent in the sources! Yes, this article used to have sourced text that explained that many theories about Alawite beliefs are based on rumours which are denied by Alawites themselves. But these have, funnily enough, been removed. FunkMonk (talk) 17:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh really. You haven't produced one WP:RS to support your POV that what's in the article now is not a WP:NPOV summary of current mainstream scholarship on Alawite belief. Until you do that you don't have any credibility. Until I came across this article a year or two ago I had no interest or views on what Alawite belief may or may not be, and actually I don't care one way or the other in RL. It really is no RL concern of mine whether they are the most orthodox Muslims on the planet or they think that Ali is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My personal POV is that all religions are equally ludicrous and there's nothing to choose between them. But what I do object to is flagrant disregard of WP:RS to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. It goes to the heart of what Wikipedia is about. DeCausa (talk) 19:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Address the obvious WP:UNDUE issues, please, I don't care about your personal opinions. I've not removed anything, and I don't suggest to. An article about a religious group needs to present its views about itself. Wikipedia cannot present controversial opinions about living people or groups as "fact" without putting these claims in context and by clear attribution. This is not something I've made up, so spare me the lame accusations. FunkMonk (talk) 20:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

FFS, my point for the umpteenth time is that you have produced absolutely zero evidence to support your personal opinion that what's in the article is "controversial". It just isn't. Just stop claiming it is and instead put a single scholarly RS into the discussion that says it is controversial. If you do that I'd be quite happy to look at it. I literally cannot find any scholarly sources that indicates it is controversial. I'm really quite frustrated with this discussion because if it is genuinely controversial in mainstream scholarship (as opposed to just in local politics) then I would be more than happy to see that in the article. I genuinely want to establish whether I have missed scholarly RS. What I find most frustrating about your stonewalling is that I can't tell whether there's any truth behind your point - and part of me thinks there might be - because you refuse to cite RS. DeCausa (talk) 20:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

FFS/FYI, a sample found in five minutes: "The details of Alawite beliefs are almost impossible to confirm—divulging them to a nonbeliever is punishable by death."[2] "One must be careful here, because an esoteric religion like that of the Alawis often uses strongly metaphorical terms." "I mention Lyde because his colourful account still exerts a strong influence, being widely referred to on the internet. Just as false an idea of Alawi belief is to be had by claiming it as a survival of Zoroastrianism or making it an Ismaili sect."[3] "With false accusations ranging from indulging in incestuous relationships, homosexuality, to sharing sexual partners, myths around the mysterious sect have done little to appease tensions."[4] "“They invent stories about our deification of Imam Ali Bin Ali Taleb, God forbid. We believe in the one and only Allah and follow his Prophet Mohammad’s path. These unjust rumors have a lot to do with the marginalization and deprivation that we suffer from,” Kaddour adds."[5] "But some scholars argue this is a misinterpretation and Alawis actually believe Ali to be an essence or form, rather than a human being, through which followers can try to "grasp God""[6] "Friedman stresses that Nusayri beliefs are grounded ultimately in the Qur’an and that those elements that strike some as un-Islamic (like celebrating Christmas and the ritual use of wine) are derived from the same pre-Islamic Near Eastern traditions that shaped Islam as a whole, if in different ways."[7] FunkMonk (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Is this some sort of joke? You've cited 6 sources, all of which are journalists. None are scholarly academics. I have only cited ONLY works by internationally recognised academic scholars - specialists in their fields. STRIKE ONE. All the first three journalists you cite do is dispute accusations against Alawites that are NOTHING to do with what's stated in the article as being Alawite belief. Straw man. STRIKE TWO. The subsequent journalist just quotes an Alawite spokesman making denials about Ali's alleged status. How does those sort of non-neutral partisan statements override the academic sources? (Although I have no problem including them in the article aas alleged counter-claims) The fourth (BBC) piece is too vague to be meaningful? What scholars? Are they significant? Is the quote inconsistent with what's in the article anyway. This is the problem with using loose journalism in a very academic topjc. STRIKE THREE. The sixth journalist's piece doesn't even contradict what's in the article. OUT. If you're serious about this, produce scholarly articles and books providing an academic critique of the scholarly works I've cited - not journalists making generalised statements that "there's a lot of unsubstantiated rumours about what Alawites believe floating around the internet" or quoting Alawite spokesman who clearly have an agenda to present their community in a certain way. DeCausa (talk) 22:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Could we please quit the strawmen and snide remarks? I repeat yet again: I'm not proposing to remove anything. I'm proposing that controversial claims be attributed to author x of y nationality for context and caution, and that we add that no claims about Alawite beliefs have been confirmed by Alawites themselves, and that many claims may even be based on rumours/misinterpretations/outdated scholarship. This is what Wikipedia guidelines indicate we should do (WP:UNDUE). And as I said, I found those articles (which are reliable enough for inclusion anyhow) in five minutes through a Google search to demonstrate what's out there, so spare me the gloating. Scholars who base their "research" on century old observations, hearsay, and "revelations" by Alawite apostates are worth no more than the old crap they're citing. FunkMonk (talk) 22:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

No, I won't quit the "strawman and snide remarks" until you come up with sources as serious as the ones I've produced. You've made a knee-jerk ABF assumption that I'm relying on Lyde-esque derived sources and the like. There is no evidence whatsoever that the sources I have used rely on "century old observations". You've jumped to that conclusion without any evidence whatsoever. Do some proper research and come back with compelling academic works instead of lazily relying on generalised through-away comments from journalists. Just because there are a lot of internet based rumours about the Alwaites doesn't mean that recognised academic scholarship can be tarred with the same brush. As for attributing the nationality of the authors, what the fuck? We don't degenerate to that level of sectarianism in Wikipedia. Either it's an RS or it's not. DeCausa (talk) 22:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

This is getting so entrenched that we'll need outside comments. All my propositions are encouraged by Wikipedia policies, see WP:In-text attribution. And what exactly does stating ones nationality have to do with sectarianism? Is it "sectarian" that I mentioned the nationalities of various scholars on the hoopoe starling article? Are you fecking kidding me? It is for context. Which is even more important when claims are as controversial as here. I see I'm arguing with a trained lawyer, which should put me in a pretty bad position. Am I "sectarian" for nothing that? You keep implying that I want to refute or remove claims of whatever writer, but as much as I'm doing that here on the talk page, that's not what I proposed for the article. So yes, quit the strawman. FunkMonk (talk) 22:58, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I suggested an outside opinion 7 months ago. I think an RFC is the way to go. As a reminder, you are defending this revert, which to my mind is a fairly obvious breach of WP:LEAD. I think the RFC questiin should be "(1) Should the lead contain a summary of the section "Beliefs" in the article and (2) if so, should this proposal be adopted: [here insert this proposal I made last summer]". DeCausa (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Done (see below) and listed under "Religion and philosophy". DeCausa (talk) 08:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not "defending" any one revert, the original discussion was years ago. What I'm suggesting is what I outlined directly above, which the RFC should reflect. FunkMonk (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Your comment is too generalised. What specific amendments to the article are you proposing? Please provide the text you want to see added and where. DeCausa (talk) 20:10, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Conversion to Alawite religion

Are Alawites just like the druze in that they reject converts or are they like the bohras and nizaris? do they accept convers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.168.242 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

They believe that you have to be "born or reincarnated" as an Alawite. They don't accept reverts. They barely even discuss their belief system in public. I'm a Twelver Shia and when I talk to them I realized that they are of Ismaili branch of Shia Islam, not Twelver for sure. I posted above why they aren't Twelvers. All what's there I gathered from them themselves. Reincarnation, Imam Ali (as) as a deity etc. it has nothing to do with the Twelver Shia Islam, they are from Ismailis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 07:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

"secular al-Hassad family"

What do the last two sentences of the lede have to do with the article? Probably some nuance that escapes me. "Since Hafez al-Assad took power in 1970, the government has been dominated by a political elite led by the secular Al-Assad family. During the Islamic uprising in Syria during the 1970s and 1980s the establishment came under pressure, and the conflict continues as part of the Syrian civil war." --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 04:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It is a summary of the current situation for the Alawites in Syria. And what is "Hassad"? FunkMonk (talk) 11:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Avoid demonization

There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism.

The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls" , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites.

The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 (talk) 5:13 am, Today (UTC+1)

It certainly needs more attribution, in the vein of "the Israeli historian XXX states that", etc. Now, such claims are stated as facts, which is incorrect, as none of them have ever been confirmed by Alawites, and much of it is based on mere hearsay. Even the claims of some weird Finnish convert to Sunni Islam are taken at face value. FunkMonk (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Request for Comment

(1) Should the lead to the Alawites article include a summary of the section of the article entitled "Beliefs"?

(2) If "yes", should that summary be as follows:

Alawites have historically kept their beliefs secret from outsiders and non-initiated Alawites, so rumours about them have arisen. Arabic accounts of their beliefs tend to be partisan (either positively or negatively). However, since the early 2000s, Western scholarship on the Alawite religion has made significant advances. At the core of Alawite belief is a divine triad, comprising three aspects of the one God. These aspects or emanations appear cyclically in human form throughout history. The last emanations of the divine triad, according to Alawite belief, were as Ali, Muhammad and Salman the Persian. Alawites were historically persecuted for these beliefs by the Sunni Muslim rulers of the area.

DeCausa (talk) 08:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• Please see above discussion Talk:Alawites#Summary of Alawites beliefs in lead DeCausa (talk) 08:06, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The above is a misrepresentation of my position, which I will outline here: I'm not proposing to remove anything. I'm proposing that controversial claims be attributed to author x of y nationality for context and caution per WP:In-text attribution, and that we add that no claims about Alawite beliefs have been confirmed by Alawites themselves per WP:UNDUE, and that many claims may even be based on rumours/misinterpretations/outdated scholarship, per sources linked above. FunkMonk (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This RfC is about the content of the lead not the Beliefs section. The lead currently has no description of the Beliefs section. If you want to make changes to the Beliefs section, please propose them elsewhere. DeCausa (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

You may have noticed that I already did. Inn any case, yes, even the lead should use cautionary language. FunkMonk (talk) 20:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

You have dismissed even my general proposal for no apparent reason, so writing a text would be premature. FunkMonk (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

That's ridiculously obstructive and non-constructive. I've lost all patience with you and have gone ahead and added it to the lead.DeCausa (talk) 17:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Your patience has little relevancy, as I'm not here to please you. What matters is consensus, and we're not getting any comments so far, so I re-added the request tag. FunkMonk (talk) 09:32, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The text has been there for 4 months now without challenge, so per WP:EDITCONSENSUS this thread is concluded I believe. DeCausa (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

IP's claims of Kurdish origins of Alawites

Numerous IPs keep attempting to add info to the article stating how Alawites groups have Kurdish origins. The text cited does not back up this claim. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It is of course possible that some do, though most certainly don't, but it would need solid sourcing. FunkMonk (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I've read the book which the IP says backs his claim. It does not say the Alawites are from Kurds. It only says that some had lived in Singar and fought against the Kurds. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Sourced fragment that was removed

There was a long and sourced fragment completely removed from article. Some people try their best to "prove" that Alawites are Twelver Shia Muslims while they themselves do not consider themselves as such and hold VERY distinct system of belief than mainstream Shia Islam. Removed fragment:

"The tenth-century Twelver heresiographer Abu Muhammad al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Nawbakhti claimed the Alawi founder propagated the un-Islamic belief of the transmigration of souls and permitted homosexual relations. Jurists such as the eleventh-century scholar Muhammad bin al-Hassan al-Tusi accused the Alawis of heresy and cursed them for permitting what was forbidden. In 1834 Twelvers raised troops for the Ottomans to quash an Alawi revolt.

When European travelers began visiting Syria in the eighteenth century, Alawis informed them they were Christians. To prevent missionaries from claiming them as lost Christians, the Ottomans asserted they were Muslims. Mosques were built. But the Alawis rejected these attempts of integration into the Islamic community. When the French ruled Syria, they too tried to incorporate them into the Islamic fold. Twelver judges were imported to establish courts. But the Alawis rebuffed them as well. In 1948, Alawi students went to the Twelver center of Najaf, Iraq to learn their doctrines. But after being ridiculed and scorned, most quickly returned home.

In the 1960s, Alawis officers took power in Syria. But they did not establish cordial ties with Iran. Instead, it was the Iran-Iraq war that proved a turning point. But religious ties between the Alawis and Twelvers were as strained as ever. A 1985 American diplomatic cable noted that Twelver scholars “view the Alawis as heretical and despicable.” Indicative of the abyss between them, Twelvers sought to proselytize among the Alawis. Six Twelver preachers were arrested for doing so in 1996." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.19.103.245 (talk) 11:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Alawites not Shia but different religion - Alawite leaders

We can finally put the fight about Alawites and their belief to the side as their own religious body issued a public note on that [8]:

"The community and religious leaders say they hope to "shine a light" on the Alawites after a long period of secrecy, at what they call "an important moment" in their history.

In the eight-page document, termed a "declaration of identity reform", the Alawites say they represent a third model "of and within Islam".

Those behind the text say Alawites are not members of a branch of Shia Islam - as they have been described in the past by Shia clerics - and that they are committed to "the fight against sectarian strife".

They also make clear that they adhere to "the values of equality, liberty and citizenship", and call for secularism to be the future of Syria, and a system of governance in which Islam, Christianity and all other religions are equal.

In the document published on Sunday, the Alawite leaders insist that their faith is "solely based on the idea of worshipping God". They add that "the Koran alone is our holy book and a clear reference to our Muslim quality".

While acknowledging that they share some formal religious sources, the leaders stress that Alawism is distinct from Shia Islam, and decline previous legal rulings, or fatwas, by leading Shia clerics that seek to "appropriate the Alawites and consider Alawism an integral part of Shiism or a branch of the latter".

The leaders also acknowledge that Alawites have incorporated elements of other monotheistic religions into their traditions, most notably Judaism and Christianity, but say they should "not be seen as marks of deviation from Islam but as elements that bear witness to our riches and universality".

So the anonymous user who fought previously for so long was right, Alawites are a different religion within itself, NOT a branch of Shia Islam. This should go to the Criticism of Wikipedia, as it caused all foreign Wikis to basically repeat an English one on that causing massive misinformation.

It is obviously some kind of propaganda hoax. Here is some commentary by Asad Abukhalil:[9] FunkMonk (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Personal blogs are not sources. They are private opinions. It was outlined above on multiple occasions that Alawites have nothing to do eith Twelvers in history and theology.

Personal opinions of Wikipedia editors hold even less weight than blogs. FunkMonk (talk) 07:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You people cultivate this nonsense that Alawites are Twelvers because it suits your agenda to label the Syrian regime as a "Shia government". Alawites never felt Shia, they told the French that they were Christians, they told the Ottomans they were Sunni Sufis. They tell Twelver Shias that they are Shias. That's because they place Ali higher than any other companions, doesnt make them automatically Shia Muslims nor Twelvers. It was outlined before in detail that their aqida runs contrary to the one of Twelvers. Twelvers do not meet in mixed gathering, do not dance, do not believe in reincarnation and do not take Ali as god. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.220.72.109 (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Who is "you people"? Do you even know a single Alawite? Alawites today identify as Shia. FunkMonk (talk) 21:54, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

About the population in the Golan Hights

The area is disputed, a private person can't determine if it should be Lebanon or Israel. Therefore, I suggest to just write "Golan Hights". Any objection? Israelly (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Since when was the UN a "private person"? No one but Israel considers it Israeli. FunkMonk (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Offensive words

"The region was home to a mostly-rural, heterogeneous population. The landowning families and 80 percent of the population of the port city of Latakia were Sunni Muslim; however, in rural areas 62 percent of the population were Alawite peasants. There was considerable Alawite separatist sentiment in the region,[51] evidenced by a 1936 letter signed by 80 Alawi leaders addressed to the French Prime Minister which said that the "Alawite people rejected attachment to Syria and wished to stay under French protection". Among the signatories was Sulayman Ali al-Assad, father of Hafez al-Assad.[51] Even during this time of increased Alawite rights, the situation was still so bad for the group that many females had to leave their homes to work for urban Sunnis - many becoming mistresses to their employers - which is why it was estimated that 25% of all Alawite children in the 1930s and 40s had Sunni fathers.[52] " — Preceding unsigned comment added by عراف الجبل (talk • contribs) 11:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

It seems as though you are an Alawite who takes offence to this edit. That is understandable but please stop vandalising the article by trying to remove it or change it to this. The edit is well sourced and relevant and your own personal feelings about the edit are irrelevant. You have been warned about this before by other editors and if you keep vandalising it then i will report you to be blocked from editing. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 08:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

You are the same person who wants to keep this unreal fact and stop change your site and your IP يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

You were warned, yet you removed the info again. Your claim of "unreal fact" is baseless. The info is provided by a reliable publisher and a scholar — you would do well to click the wikilinks in the reference. I will now report you to be blocked from editing. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I am Syrian and from the Alawite sect and I know all the real details about my sect more than anyone even if he claims to be a scholar. Please stop marketing offensive information about my sect through the encyclopedia, especially by one person who changes his IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 11:37, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

You have been warned mutiple times to stop removing well cited content just because it offends you as an Alawite. That is no legitimate excuse for removing content. You do not own Wiki and Wiki doesn't exist to make you feel good about yourself. I will now refer our case to DR because i don't see that you will ever accept proper Wiki editing protocol. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not for those like you who want to market false information about my sect for political reasons. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 09:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

WHO ARE YOU to tell me what to do and what not to do. You are but an IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 09:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

From now on please add your comments to the Alawite article talk page under offensive words section. I can understand your hurt feelings: you are an Alawite who is offended by a reliable source that may imply you have a Sunni grandfather. But you have offered no real evidence against the reference other than your biased personal opinion about what is fact and fiction. Wiki doesn't work like that. Please stop your vandalism until you can produce better excuses. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 09:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

For you 118.222.229.61 : My tribe was Christian and then it became Sunni and then it became Alawi and I am a descendant of the prince of this tribe of the same lineage of an Alawi feudal family. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 08:15, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Third opinion

I comment here as 118.222.229.61 has requested a third opinion [10]. First of all, you both (the IP and يوسف عاشق الجبل) need to change behavior. You have both violated WP:3RR and could not be blocked. No, neither the adding or the removal of the debated text was "vandalism", so neither of you had any legitimate reason to edit war as you did. I have requested temporary protection for the article. As for the matter of the dispute, I am inclined to agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل. I see no good reason why this text is WP:DUE here. Yes, it is sourced, but being sourced is not always enough. At the very least, the onus is on the IP to argue for why the text belongs in the article. That has not been done. As for now, I restore the article to have it looked before your edit war. This restoration is not an endorsement of either view, just respecting WP:BRD. Once more, you both need to change both the way you address other users and the way you edit. Jeppiz (talk) 23:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: I don't understand what you are agreeing with يوسف عاشق الجبل about, considering that he gave no reason for his disapproval other than arguing that it was offensive and he somehow inherently knew it was false. So, if you could clarify, are you agreeing with his view that it should be removed because it's offensive, or do you agree with his unsubstantiated claim that it is false? On the other hand, my reason for inclusion is that it is reliably sourced and relevant to the section because it strikingly emphasises just how poverty-stricken and lowly the Alawites were in that era. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 06:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you @Jeppiz:: I want to tell the IP (118.222.229.61) that Jeppiz has no preconceived ideas and prejudices against a specific sect. Poverty and bad conditions were present among all residents of Syria in that era, especially among urban dwellers. It is a ridiculous request, for example, to ask a person (whose parents we do not know) to prove that he is a legitimate child of his parents. There are many sources with political malignant purposes that can not be trusted at all. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 07:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

• Note that most recent books about Alawites in English are written by Israelis or people of different Muslim sects, which is of course a case of Alawite secretiveness being counter-productive, but it also means that we need to attribute controversial statements in the text for context and not take everything at face value. FunkMonk (talk) 09:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Answer IP, I agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل that the text is potentially offensive. Now, you are right in saying that offensive does not mean we cannot say it (many articles state well-sourced facts that may offend some people). However, if we include something that might be offensive, the very least we would expect is that it is relevant and with strong backing in sources. It is debatable whether one single source from 25 years ago is strong enough, but that's not the main issue. The main issue is why this text is WP:DUE, as I already pointed out. Once again, if you want to include, then the onus is on you to make that argument. Jeppiz (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Okay, so the source reads: Daughters went off at the age of seven or eight years to work as domestics for urban Sunni Arabs. Because many of them also ended up as mistresses (one estimate holds that a quarter of all Alawi children in the 1930s and 1940s had Sunni fathers)... Therefore, i agree that the 25% section is UNDUE since it is only according to "one estimate"; i don't think it would be undue to retain the "many becoming mistresses to their employers" section of the edit, since there is no hint that this is a single or tiny minority view. What are your thoughts? --118.222.229.61 (talk) 00:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Looking forward to your reply. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The phrase which Daniel Pipes mentioned in his book ( which the IP 118.222.229.61 relies on) is not intended to clarify real information but rather to offend a certain sect. Daniel Pipes is known for his anti-Arab tendencies and he supports Israel, so he has many political ideas he wants to market to the media in order to diminish the value of Alawite minority in Syria because the president of Syria is Alawi and hostile to Israel. The Alawites were in mountainous areas and few of Alawi men worked in cities for Sunni families. Alawites did not even send their underage daughters to schools in the cities, so how would they send their underage daughters to work for Sunni families? Many Alawi women married Sunni men but those women were not mistresses or prostitutes. As Mr @Jeppiz: pointed out, the text is WP:DUE. يوسف عاشق الجبل (talk) 08:10, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I am not even concerned about religions and beliefs, but I would say it was a good move that you locked the article from being edited by some lame users who vandalize edits without having an account !! However, this user 118.222.229.61 who happens to be an anti-alawite is trying to enforce some shitty opinions like himself on readers ! If that is the claim then all Sunnis are Mongolian leftovers as Timur’s army never left any virgin especially in the big cities !! That ip user should be sent in real life to his beloved jihadi boys to be dealt with (like with armed drones) !! Mark Mercer (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Nusayris and Bektashis had no similarity with the Alid community

Hi! there I recently noticed that this article is seem to be adding the vandalized information, such as adding the description of the Alid community in this article, and considering the Alevis and Nusayri Alawites as same as Alids, However, Alids are the descendants of the 4th Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib and Nusayris and Alevis are the Shia Muslim sects, only their terms are similar to the Alids. 111.88.90.249 (talk) 18:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

They are NOT Shias

Alawites are not Shias and never were considered as such by anyone but modern day Wahhabis. Alawites don’t attend Twelver mosques and services, they don’t pray daily, they do drink alcohol, don’t perform Hajj, and their women barely veil. Even Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that they are not Shias, neither were they ever classified as such by Shia Islamic scholars of the past like Shaykh Tusi. Both Assads - Hafez and Bashar, deported Iranian ulama who sought to make Alawites into Shias. Alawites are completely unrelated and separate religious group. If they are to be considered as a “Shia sect”, then Ahmadis and Nation of Islam are a “Sunni sect”.

They are not Twelver Shias, and no one claims they are, so that's besides the point. Basically all sources say they are a branch of Shia Islam. Druze as well. FunkMonk (talk) 07:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Twelvers are not the only Shias; Zaydis and Ismailis are also universally considered Shia. Druze started as a branch of Shia but then split into their own religion. KN 940 (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Just in addition to that, Alawites do in-fact pray 5 times a day and seek to perform "Hajj" Jacobelali3 (talk) 14:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Other scriptures

What are the scriptures besides the Quran they accept? It's only alluded to in the third paragraph, perhaps we could flesh it out with more detail? 24.44.73.34 (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Nahj al-Balagha and more controversially kitab al majmu, which I think used to be in the infobox. FunkMonk (talk) 19:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Dubious source in the Ottoman empire section

The Arabic articles that were cited as sources to the alleged "Massacre of the Telal" are dubious. Both sources claim that the alleged massacre was reported in a letter sent to the Ottoman Sultan and claim that the letter is preserved in the National library of Strasbourg. However, both articles do not give any further information about the letter that could help us reach it, not even a title. This fact, combined with the wording of the articles, could help us reach a conclusion that they are nothing but pure propaganda. Steve Hurrington (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Nusayris is not an insult

As far as I know Nusayris is not an insult

as the article say and repeat

the name was driven from Ibn Nusayr [11] Carnegie6 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Muslims don't like to be called Muhammedans, that doesn't mean they don't like Muhammed. FunkMonk (talk) 01:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

@Carnegie6 @FunkMonk That term is mostly used by the detractors of the Alawites. One possible reason is that Nusayri has a very similar pronunciation to an expression that means "the little Christians", mocking their closeness to the Middle Eastern Christians and the observance of their religious holidays. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It is used primarily as a slur, as the article itself notes (with reference). GhostOfNoMan 11:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Uğur Şahin's background is disputed

In the article, sentence about Uğur Şahin being an alawite is cited as source of an article; however, source does not specifies, just assumes. Article journalist says He's from Alexandretta an alevi, so his parents must be relocated from Syria 200 hundred years ago this is not a source but an assume. Therefore, whole part of Uğur Şahin have to be deleted or should be cited with a reliable, definitive source. 31.223.43.88 (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Lebanon

Are some users missing that their edits are insert Lebanon twice into the infobox? For areas inhabited by Alawites are uncontestedly in Lebanon, they are already already included in Lebanon. For the parts of the Golan Heights under Israeli control (which both the Alawites of the area and I myself consider Syrian), it is contested between Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. The current version reads as if the Golan Heights are all Lebanese, which nobody claims. This is not an issue of one POV versus another, purely of a factually incorrect infobox. This shouldn't even be an issue, WP:COMPETENCE very much applies. Jeppiz (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Location is about Ghajar. Northern Ghajar is in Lebanon, southern part is in the occupied Syrian Golan. So that's what the infobox should say.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, as that entry is specifically about Ghajar, it wouldn't make sense to list Israel as if it was opposed to the Golan part. FunkMonk (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Look, I'm sure we agree about Ghajar being Lebanese. That's not the issue, though. That part of the infobox is to provide readers with information about where Alawites live. A discussion about the division of Ghajar is simply WP:UNDUE for the infobox. Alawites who live in Northern Ghajar are included under "Lebanon" (already mentioned), those in Southern Ghajar under "Golan Heights". Ghajar shouldn't even be mentioned in the infobox. Jeppiz (talk) 17:41, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

The infobox says "Ghajar", not "Southern Ghajar", so both Lebanon and GH must be included. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but why does the infobox say Ghajar? That's my point, it's entirely undue to mention one location only in the infobox. No other Alawite towns or villages are mentioned in the infobox, and Ghajar shouldn't be either per [[WP:DUE[]. Jeppiz (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't know who added it to begin with, but Ghajar is an extremely special case with few obvious equivalents worldwide, so it makes sense that it would be presented in a unique way. FunkMonk (talk) 06:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

As for the recurring claim of "irredentism" on Lebanon's behalf by one editor, that is just a misunderstanding of what the /Lebanon is supposed to convey; that the Ghajar population is split between Lebanon and the Golan heights, regardless of who controls the latter. It has nothing to do with Lebanese claims to the area, the only part Lebanon lays claim on in that area are the Shebaa Farms. FunkMonk (talk) 23:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The Shrine is the best picture we have in Commons that represents the Alawites

The Shrine of Khidr in Samandag, Turkey

I disagree with @FunkMonk on his decision to revert the Shrine picture to the Zulfiqar, as the page image. The Zulfiqar is too broad to be used to symbolize Alawites. Here are some examples of articles in the Arabic Wikipedia that use the Zulfiqar:

• Muqtada al-Sadr * Hamdanid dynasty * Buyid dynasty * Twelver Shia * Alawites (sect) * Iran * Ismaili * Hezbollah * Hasan ibn Ali * Husayn ibn Ali * Ali al-Sistani * Ruhollah Khomeini * Ja'far al-Sadiq * Category:House of Fatima * Nahj al-Balagha * Kaysanites * Waqifites * Shaykhis * Sharif al-Radi * Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim * Fatima bint Asad * Idrisid dynasty * Karbala * Amir al-Mu'minin * Muhammad Baqir * Sayyid * Ali Zain al-Abidin * Musa al-Kazim * Ali al-Ridha * Muhammad al-Jawad * Ali al-Hadi * Qom * Ahl al-Bayt * Category:Shia books * Imamate * Tawhid in Islam * Ayatollah * Muhsin ibn Ali * Mahdi * Twelve Imams * Amal Movement * Islamic jurisprudence * Fatima's Quran * Ali's Quran * Mut'ah marriage * Zaydiyyah

On the other hand, the shrine is a very typical Alawite Maqam, it is very representative. Not just this particular Shrine, but these kinds of Shrines (or Maqams, or Ziyarahs). There are hundreds of these in the Levant, and this is a very characteristic Alawite Shrine because of the typical white paint and the typical architecture.

One other reason that made me think this picture has great representative value is this summarized quote from Sevan Nisanyan, who is knowledgeable on these matters, from a video:

“ I didn't know much about the Nusayris until I turned 30. I've traveled extensively in Turkey since a young age, but I was unaware of the Nusayris, especially in the southern region around Antakya, Hatay. In this area, there's a significant population of Arabic-speaking people who identify themselves as Alawites. Their traditions and beliefs are quite distinct from other Alevi communities in Turkey. Interestingly, they have white-painted tombs scattered throughout the mountains, resembling Greek churches. They are often situated in picturesque locations, perched on the mountaintops, hillsides, or even near the entrance of caves. The exteriors of these tombs are painted in a striking white color, similar to the aesthetics of Rum (Greek) churches in Greece. The architectural design includes domes, creating a visual similarity to the small shrines and churches seen in Greek landscapes. These places, unlike typical Alevi practices in other parts of Turkey, involve unique rituals. The term "Nusayri" is used by outsiders; the locals don't appreciate it. There's a debate about the meaning of the term, with some suggesting it originated from an Arab figure in the 12th century. However, it is also considered an insult, meaning "small Christians" or "Christian." The Nusayris have their unique beliefs, and stories suggest that they either converted from Christianity or share similarities with Christians due to historical interactions. ”

I would like to have a constructive discussion on this subject that we can learn from each other. Also, I would like to invite @PaFra and @Solmissos to the discussion if they have time, due to their expertise on the subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, the most universal symbol for Alawites is zulfiqar, just like the cross is for Christianity. Having a random shrine of no particular significance doesn't really add anything to the broader understanding of the group. This photo is even tagged with "Sufism" on Commons, which is unrelated to Alawites, and makes it uncertain what it belongs to. But if it's indeed Alawite and not Turkish Alevite, it's a perfect representation of that under the section on Alawites in Turkey, where it is now. FunkMonk (talk) 08:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@FunkMonk Thank you for the response, but I'm not sure you have addressed some my points above. The Zulfiqar is a symbol of Alawites, that is true. The problem is the Zulfiqar is also a symbol of Shia Muslims, which is a much larger group. Even if we consider the Alawites a subgroup of Shia Muslims, it is not the best representation to use the same symbol for all subgroups. Something that uniquely represents that subgroup is definitely better. Regarding the Shrine being Alevite instead of Alawite: Definitely not. If you do some research, Samandag (Suweydiah), where the Shrine is located, is a city near the Turkey-Syria border and the city has one of the most significant Alawite populations in the region. The Turkish vs. non-Turkish distinction is artificial: For many centuries all the present-day countries with significant Alawite populations belonged to a single empire with no borders between them. Regarding this being only a random Shrine: as I say, this characteristic repeats itself all over the Levant. It is a typical Alawite Shrine because of the white paint and the dome. There are many shrines like this in Syria, too. I'm okay if we find a picture of a different Alawite Shrine, or something that represents the Alawites, but not too broadly all Shia Muslims. At least, are you okay with me using a "multiple picture" template and adding the Shrine under the Zulfiqar? I will update the caption to clarify that it is not this specific Shrine, but the common existence of shrines with this architecture is why the picture is there. Thanks again for the constructive discussion. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:34, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I know, but since both ethnically Turkish Alevis and ethnically Arab Alawites exist in Turkey, it is more important to have solid sourcing than for example images from Syria or Lebanon, where only Arab Alawites exist. I think we would need some more views on this either way, as I still don't see why any random shrine should be used as the main image, unless it has anciennity or a more universal significance. FunkMonk (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@FunkMonk Actually, I just found a reference (Full text available via the Wikipedia Library) that establishes that this is indeed an Alawite shrine, and it is more than a random shrine: "In terms of spiritual potency the Khidr ziyarat are regarded as the most powerful. Particularly, the Khidr ziyara in Samandag ̆ (see Figure 2) needs to be mentioned in this context, because among the Alawi it has acquired the status of a pilgrimage site equal to Mecca." TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

This is a page about Alawites, the group, so an image with some people in it is immediately an improvement on an image with no people in it. An abstract symbol is not a good representation of a group. Britannica, a useful tertiary reference point, has a picture of a group of people. As for the zulfiqar image itself, where is it even from? It looks user generated, and user generated calligraphic images are now proscribed by MOS:CALLIGRAPHY. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Regime?

I removed the use of the word "regime" because it seems loaded.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2024

This topic is extremely incorrect. The Alawites do not believe imam Ali to be an incarnation of god 120.21.186.112 (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Etymology - what does "Alawi" mean?

Ironically, the "Etymology" section of this article doesn't address the actual etymology of the word, only discussing alternative names and how and when it came to be used. It needs to explain what the word actually means. GeoEvan (talk) 06:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

"Minority with respect to what?"

@TheJoyfulTentmaker this is not an OR. I did not make that term and you don't get to negotiate the already established facts stated in RS. It's mentioned in the already cited refs that they are a minority. "With respect to whom?", that's not my issue, you can do give the refs a visit if you're curious to know. But I can tell you that probably "with respect" to the area they reside in, not to the "world"? And when you reverted my edit, you reverted other changes I made that were not problematic, so you might need to remove the problematic words manually without reverting the whole edit in the future in order not to make this an edit war. Thx. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 01:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Super ninja2 Thank you for starting this discussion. Unfortunately, I still don't see any of these changes as an improvement over the existing version. When a source refers to them as 'minority,' it is viewing them from the perspective of a single country. On Wikipedia, however, we need to consider a global viewpoint and adhere to WP:NPOV. I'd be interested to hear the rest of the community's thoughts. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

When a source refers to them as 'minority,' it is viewing them from the perspective of a single country. On Wikipedia, however, we need to consider a global viewpoint and adhere to WP:NPOV.

u cant be serious

I don't mind discarding the word "minority". I was just answering your question and explaining my point. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 01:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

What we have to do is only to follow what the sources say, that is the very basis of Wikipedia. "Global viewpoint" is not mentioned in any guidelines, and seems like a home-cooked criterion, and is therefore irrelevant. Alawites are unanimously described as a minority group, in the sense that in all countries they exist in they are a religious minority. FunkMonk (talk) 01:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That is true today. In the past, there were instances when they were not, such as in the Alawite State. So, my editorial judgement is that it is not the best short description we can use to describe this subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, what do the sources say? WP:verifiability, not truth. FunkMonk (talk) 02:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, I think there is no factual controversy about either version under discussion: they both are true and verifiable. My point is maybe better explained in MOS:LEADREL rather than WP:NPOV. It is true that they are a minority sect in Syria and Turkey, they are an esoteric sect, and they are an ethnoreligious group. The question is, which of these should we emphasize in the lead and in the short description if we are writing an encyclopedia with a global audience? I acknowledge that this may be a matter of judgement at this point, so I'll leave the rest to the community consensus. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 05:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

and they are an ethnoreligious group

they are not an ethnoreligious group. they are arabs. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 05:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I've restored it, as it is supported by the reference already in place:

While identifying as a branch of Shi’a Islam, Alawites are a distinct ethno-religious community with a long history in the region, dating back millennia.

Ref (under 'Historical context').

There are other more scholarly sources that refer to the group as 'ethnoreligious', too, e.g. Solidarity theologies and the (re)definition of ethnoreligious identities: the case of the Alevis of Turkey and Alawites of Syria. GhostOfNoMan 07:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)